Christian Blog… http://savingmarriage2011.blogspot.com/2011/03/four-arguments-against-homosexual.html
Four arguments against homosexual marriage
- Anonymous said… Wow, comparing gay marriage to marrying a horse. Impressive.
- March 15, 2011 9:03 PM
- Just me in T said… God created man and woman….. and told them to go forth and multiply. They were in a man woman relationship…. not homosexual and not lesbian.I am sorry for those who feel because they are ‘gay’ they are ostracised, but their relationships are NOT marriage…. IF the Government (read Green’s) feels it is important to recognise same sex relationships, let them do so thru civil society and not by dengrading the sanctity of marriage. Marriage (man and woman) is God’s gift to humanity.
- March 16, 2011 1:26 PM Anonymous said… The Bible tells us ” A man who lays with another man as he would a Woman is am abomination in the eyes of God”, in my eyes also.
- March 16, 2011 9:52 PM
- cinderkeys said… First, the Bible says a whole lot of things that nobody pays attention to anymore. If you want to believe homosexuality is an abomination, fine — but take responsibility for your own beliefs. Don’t blame them on God.Second, if anyone has hard evidence that same-sex marriages harm hetero marriages, I’d like to see it. Have divorce rates increased in Canada, or in states that allow same-sex marriage?Finally, this is a matter of individual choice. Period. You don’t get to impose your religion, as you practice your religion, on anybody but yourself. You can tell people of your beliefs and hope that they believe you. You don’t get to turn your beliefs into laws. If you’re right about what God wants, and people are only doing what you want them to do because secular law forbids them from doing otherwise, they aren’t going to be right in God’s eyes anyway.
- March 18, 2011 2:21 PM Campbell said… Hi Cinderkeys, thanks for taking the time to comment on the post.You imply that giving homosexual couples the right to marry will have no effect on others. “Let them do what they want to do, for how will it affect other people? Why should we interfere?”But what about the children such couples will procure through gamete donors, who will be separated from their natural parents, and from being raised by a father and mother.(For the record I also think it wrong for heterosexual couples to procure children using gamete donors, for the first reason stated above: it removes them from their natural parents.)And what about the door that homosexual marriage will open to allowing polygamous and incestuous couples to ‘marry.’ For if we give the right to marry to any consenting adults who ‘love each other’, then why should we withhold it from them?They too will say, as you have said, ‘This is a matter of individual choice. Period.’I hope to hear back from you,
- March 18, 2011 4:32 PM cinderkeys said…But what about the children such couples will procure through gamete donors, who will be separated from their natural parents, and from being raised by a father and mother.First of all, the choices in this case are the children raised by adoptive parents (or at least one adoptive parent), or not existing at all. Second, what is the evidence that children of adoptive parents don’t fare as well as children raised by their biological parents.You’re presenting a pretty discouraging message for any parents who’d like to adopt, by the way. By your reckoning, they’d be better off using a gamete donor so that at least ONE parent will be a biological parent.And what about the door that homosexual marriage will open to allowing polygamous and incestuous couples to ‘marry.’ For if we give the right to marry to any consenting adults who ‘love each other’, then why should we withhold it from them?Yes, polyamorous consenting adults (not sure “couples” works here) should be able to make those choices for themselves. It’s none of our business.The incestuous couples are a little trickier, as they’re more likely to have children with birth defects. Even there, though, I’m not sure society has the right to interfere. We don’t prohibit women over 40 from having kids, even though their offspring are more likely to have various problems than children born to younger mothers.So, where do you draw the line? Where do individuals stop having the right to make decisions for themselves?Genuine harm to society is a valid consideration. However, if the line you draw just happens to separate what you personally consider OK (women over 40 having kids) and what you consider wrong (brothers and sisters having kids), you may want to examine your motives more closely.
- March 18, 2011 4:55 PM
- Campbell Markham said… Hi Cinderkeys thanks for getting back to me.Adoption and donor conception are obviously very different:Adoption is taking a child into one’s family when the child’s natural parents are unable for whatever reason to care for him or her.Donor conception is having a child conceived with the intention of separating the child from at least one or his or her natural parents.The evidence that donor conceived children are not fairing as well as children raised by their natural parents or adoptive parents is profound.Just go to http://www.anonymousus.org and you can read what donor conceived children are saying for themselves. They talk about a loss of identity, of humiliation (“my father was a vial of sperm”), and of the pain of separation from their natural parents and grandparents and wider family.These people are angry because they believe that the basic human right of children to be raised by their natural parents when at all possible is being trampled in favour of the ‘rights of adults to a child.’Do you really think that polyamory is ok for the women and children caught up in these kinds of relationships?
- And what about polygamy? Should it be legalised? If not, why not?
And you think that incest is ok. Which kind exactly? Father-daughter? Mother-son? Brother-sister? Father-son? Mother-daughter? Brother-brother? Sister-sister? All of the above?
You would have us break down laws that were put in place to protect the weak and vulnerable.
- cinderkeys said… I went to the site and took a look at a few of the stories. Some were quiet positive, with comments about loving their intended parents as much as they could have loved any biological parents. The negative experiences seemed to stem from either not being told the truth until later in life, or from other people’s prejudices.Do you really think that polyamory is ok for the women and children caught up in these kinds of relationships?Caught up? If you’re talking about women and children who live in Warren Jeffs’ compound, then I think it’s awful. Those women — girls, actually — aren’t given a choice. They desperately need the protection you speak of.Most people don’t WANT polyamory. Those of us who don’t want it choose to stay with people who also want monogamy.The men and women who do want polyamory should be free to pursue it with each other.If polyamory becomes legal, there should be a couple of protections in place. One, as mentioned above, nobody should be forced into such a relationship. (The same goes for monogamous relationships — what’s happened under Warren Jeffs wouldn’t be that much better if the 14-year-old girls were forced into conventional marriages.)Two, the nature of the relationship has to be transparent. If I had a husband and married another man, I should need my current husband’s signature on some document stating that he’s aware I’m marrying the other guy. If all parties are not aware, then all subsequent marriages are null and void.And you think that incest is ok. Which kind exactly? Father-daughter? Mother-son? Brother-sister? Father-son? Mother-daughter? Brother-brother? Sister-sister? All of the above?
When incest involves a parent and a minor child, it’s wrong. Period. A child cannot consent to that — and would not if given a choice. If it involved a parent and an adult child (does this ever happen in reality?), I would raise an eyebrow and wonder if the chid had been abused into accepting this relationship.
I think sibling incest is icky. But if the sibs are adults and no abuse took place in childhood (with one sib much older and more powerful than the other growing up), it’s none of my business.
Bottom line? Protection for the weak: yes. Prohibiting whatever makes me uncomfortable: no.
- March 19, 2011 5:15 AM Cinderkeys said:
Finally, this is a matter of individual choice. Period. You don’t get to impose your religion, as you practice your religion, on anybody but yourself. You can tell people of your beliefs and hope that they believe you. You don’t get to turn your beliefs into laws. If you’re right about what God wants, and people are only doing what you want them to do because secular law forbids them from doing otherwise, they aren’t going to be right in God’s eyes anyway.If you take “religious” beliefs out what happens with murder, stealing etc? These laws/beliefs stem from the 10 Commandments. If we begin to move the boundary lines we might as well just let all hell break lose.
- April 25, 2011 4:48 AM
- @Anon: Do you believe that people believed murder and theft were OK before the Ten Commandments came along? Do you believe they murdered and stole with impunity?Do you believe that contemporary societies that follow a different belief system — Hinduism, for instance — have no laws against murder and theft?Do you think atheists believe murder and theft is OK? (Data point: I’m an atheist. I don’t think murder and theft are OK, and I do not murder or steal.)Have murder and theft rates skyrocketed in states where gay marriage is now legal?
- April 25, 2011 4:54 AM
- Anonymous said… I think cinderkeys is pretty fricken cool.
- May 20, 2011 2:17 PM
- Cinderkeys said I love people, whether gay or straight.
That’s why I feel the need to share truth, when people are choosing harmful illusions. Forget about religion for the moment.Have you checked the CDC stats lately?
STDs among gay men & AIDs among gay men & children gay men molested is on the rise.Although homosexual men make up about 2% of the US population, they account for a significant # of AIDS & STD cases.Also, have you looked at the health risks of gay sex? Anal sex, even if no STD is contracted poses risk of colon damage & bacterial spread/infection.Since homosexuals’ sexual parts don’t fit, they find alternatives like unprotected oral sex… another way of spreading STDs.
- May 24, 2011 7:43 AM
- We disagree — there are ways to prevent STDs regardless of whether the partners involved are gay or straight. And plenty of hetero couples have oral or anal sex. But I support your right to spread your ideas and speak what you believe to be the truth.My question: Will you simply speak the truth as you know it and hope others will hear it? Or will you work to keep marriage illegal for gay people, denying them their civil rights?You see the difference, right? In one case, you’re trying to convince them. In another case, you’re imposing your beliefs on others against their will.
- May 24, 2011 9:28 AM
- May 24, 2011 9:28 AM
- Anonymous said…
- I’m pretty much with cinderkeys on this one.Also, in response to the most recent anonymous, if homosexual men only make up for 2% of the US population, and are supposedly a bunch of pedophiles, why is it that 25% of the world have been sexually abused as children and most often it’s a heterosexual parent that did it?Also, why is it that 4% of Catholic priests are pedophiles, whereas it’s usually 2% in the general population?It’s pretty straightfoward. Child abuse has nothing to do with sexual orientation.
- May 26, 2011 7:32 PM
- Campbell Markham said…
- Hi Cinderkeys I will fight for laws that are fair and just and good for all our citizens, including silent minorities like children who can’t lobby or vote.There is nothing inherently unfair or unjust about treating homosexual relationships differently to heterosexual relationships, because they are in fact different.There is nothing inherently unfair or unjust about saying that a same-sex relationship cannot constitute a marriage anymore than it is unjust to say that a minor is not an adult, or that a woman is not a man. It is a matter not of ‘rights’ but of definition.I believe that children will be harmed by homosexual ‘marriage’, and so it would be wrong of me not to work to keep this illegal in Australia.
- May 29, 2011 11:32 PM
Cinderkeys said …Hi Campbell,Do you have proof that gay marriage harms children? Kids of gay parents don’t have a problem with their parents being gay. They do have a problem with other people saying their families are somehow inferior. Have you ever spoken with the very kids you’re trying to help?
- Campbell Markham said…
- The act of willfully and unnecessarily stripping a child away from his or her natural father and mother is self-evidently a harmful act. No little child, if they had a voice, would want or agree to this. The stories of the children of the Stolen Generation testify to this: to the sense of loss and harm that they felt.Yes I have spoken to those raised by homosexual parents who were grieved and damaged by it.
- May 30, 2011 2:08 PM
- Cinderkeys said
- If study after study came out saying that kids raised by gay couples turned out worse than kids raised by straight couples, then I might reconsider my stance — not on gay marriage, but on letting same-sex couples adopt.If study after study came out saying that kids raised by gay couples turned out like everybody else — that your examples were an extreme minority — then would you change your mind? Would you stop campaigning against these families?www.post-gazette.com/pg/07161/793042-51.stm
- May 30, 2011 3:38 PM
- JP said…We may ask for hard facts about the psychological impact of gay surrogacy etc. Like an experiment in a Petri dish, the results are only known after the experiment is concluded and the results are in. Then, we may decide to discard the Petri dish.However, we cannot discard the society we have allowed to be created. Do we let an experiment occur in our society when we know that there have been cases of damage related to this action in the past? Or do we null and void those negative experiences (i.e. hurt people) on the basis of “the greater good” – they do not fit on our bell curve. It is a grievous mistake to assume that humans can be rationalised and measured and the best outcome obtained via utilitarian means. I do not doubt that you would sympathise with these people, but I do doubt they would be comforted by a study.I would also point out that studies are conducted to measure responses. The parameters of studies are important – how is the hypothesis worded, what are your endpoints, your subjects and controls etc. We are quick to look to a specialist in the field simply because knowledge has become so specialised, and we so generalised. I refer you to Margaret Mead – we were quick to accept her word on the ‘untouched’ Polynesian way of life, only to be disappointed.There is also a (touching?) level of belief in humanity’s ability to defend itself from its own stupidity. If all that is required for all forms of marriage to be acceptable and legal is a document co-signed by the abovenamed, then why are such forms so open to abuse? Again, we fail to factor in humanity. Many of us are not rational, many of us are not as able to have access to our rights as the educated and empowered elite, and – get this – many of us are quite susceptible to folly.
- June 1, 2011 11:56 PM
Cinderkeys said …Yes, many of us are quite susceptible to folly. Few people would disagree with that. That doesn’t tell us who’s right in this case. You think proponents of gay marriage are the fools. Proponents of gay marriage think you are. And we’re back to square one. Back to needing hard data.You object to collecting this hard data, claiming that we’re letting people be harmed in the process. However, scientists are not stealing babies and randomly assigning them to straight couples and gay couples. Straight couples and gay couples are already raising kids; the researchers come along later and try to figure out how it all went.Margaret Mead was wrong about a lot of things. Her subjects thought it would be funny to feed her outlandishly false information, and they were surprised when she actually believed them. Later studies contradicted her findings, and the truth eventually came out. That’s really all we can expect from science. Scientists aren’t perfect, but the scientific process brings us closer to the truth over time.
- June 2, 2011 3:27 AM
- Anonymous said… You want to save marriage? Drug addiction, poverty, abuse, unresolved childhood issues, infidelity, finances,etc. These are some of the enemies of marriage. Attack these. Minister Gerald Palmer
- June 25, 2011 1:59 PM
- Campbell Markham said… Hi Gerald, Yes of course these other things need to be addressed as well. With the limited time available to me I have chosen to tackle what I think is a particularly powerful enemy of marriage. Are you a church minister? If so which church?
- June 28, 2011 4:42 PM
- Gemma said… Look, to be honest, i respect the gay community and we have already accepted the fact that you are loud and proud about it, but i believe that we respect your decision to be open about it in public, i think you should respect christianity in the same manner, that marriage is sacred and strictly between a man and a women. Why should a priest go against his beliefs of the christian church? Children also will suffer from this too, as the next stage in a gay marriage is to adopt children, therefore it will be in a more “frequent” manner. A child deserves to be with it’s biological parents. Not only is this the case, but also it has been proven by psychologists that a child needs both a father and mother figure to blossom and become the person they are, they need both a father and motherly figure. And by this i am not talking about surrogacy, don’t even get me started on how morally wrong surrogacy is for a child. What happens to our future? Our children are the future of this world, and by accepting this whole marriage equally crap, this tells a child that it is natural to be gay or a lesbian and it isn’t. If you all want to be gay, that is fine with your own life, but for god sake, why should the rest of society suffer because of it! And i argue as well on the whole “I WANT TO BE EQUAL IN SOCIETY” Another fact for you all, in psychology, the gay community know this is immoral and seek acceptance or fulfilment with society. For example the only way to suppress this inherent knowledge is to allow this to be accepted as a normal behaviour by attacking this, which in this case would be legally. I honestly could go on forever on how wrong it is for any country to accept this, but my main concern is the future.
- July 30, 2011 12:05 PM
- Anne said… The Homosexuals Happy Clappy lifestyle that we see at the Gay Mardi Gras and at Lay girls etc is not the real picture …with hearing the statistics and having been in close contact with them for some time but not sexually, I was not really surprised to find that suicidal ideation and suicide is an endemic problem amongst same-sex attracted and gender diverse people… They do not suicide because they feel happy and content or as some of them propagate, that they agree with what others are saying about them and feel shame and can’t handle it. Truth is they do not really care what we think, they believe we are the losers and don’t and what they are doing is not wrong and so they don’t feel shame. Although sometimes young boys are forced into this lifestyle and experience problems later with their sexual identity and cannot cope, others experiment for the thrills but become trapped in it and are passed from one partner to another. Many practicing Homosexuals have Aids or related illnesses and suicide for them is a quick way out and others find that what they thought would meet their deeper needs doesn’t and the confusion and fear they feel which is not always able to be blocked out with Drugs or Alcohol and excessive immoral sex, or fighting the Gay cause, this leaves them with no alternative at least in their thinking. Then there are those who cannot handle the abuse and rejection of their partners or being used as a commodity when wanted, they do not really have long term fulfilling relationships even if they say they do, in truth they never do, they just adapt. Are all these just True for Homosexuals, no sadly also Heterosexuals living contrary to God’s guidelines will often experience much the same trauma and as we know some of them also suicide.It is not God’s will that anyone perishes, He Loves everybody it is our choice if we accept Him and His gift of Salvation through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour as it is also our choice were our eternal destination will be.Romans 1:24-27 Therefore God our Creator gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to Sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.They exchanged the Truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served the created things rather than the Creator who is the Lord and is to be praised forever Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their Women exchanged Natural sexual relations for Unnatural ones.In the same way the Men also abandoned Natural relations with Women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other Men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their wrong doing. Kind regards Anne
- August 25, 2011 9:41 PM
- Cinderkeys said … You’re not describing any of the gay people I’ve ever met at all, Anne. The only one I know who thought about suicide did so because his religion taught him that his feelings were immoral. If he could have chosen to be attracted to women and not men at that time, he would have. He tried. Praying the gay away didn’t remotely work.Eventually he realized that his feelings were not immoral, and he became much happier. He’s been in a great relationship for over a decade now.Of course, we’re both presenting anecdotal evidence. If you know of research that indicates that gay people are unhappier, and that their unhappiness isn’t due to societal reaction or lack of civil rights, please post a citation.
- August 26, 2011 2:22 AM
- Anne said… cinderkeys said…Of course, we’re both presenting anecdotal evidence… No you are in error cinderkeys and what I shared was to me and many others not amusing, I did not present anecdotal evidence although yes it was true.I’m not speaking without personal knowledge and understanding which Homosexuals claim is one the a reasons why we don’t accept what they do, as well as being intolerant and bigoted, this is far from the Truth for me I really care that they are hurting.I nearly became involved in a Homosexual Lesbian relationship when I was younger because of deep loneliness and the need to be wanted but I was saved from it although at the time I didn’t understand why it didn’t happen before my eyes were opened to the danger it presented.Perhaps because at the time I was involved with the Gay Community although not sexually, I had deep unfulfilled needs and after being hurt and abused by men for so long I was willing to welcome any love shown to me even unnatural love. Now I give heartfelt thanks that it didn’t happen because I came to realise at that time and later in life that what Homosexuals present to the world trying to uphold that their lifestyle is normal and acceptable, is not the real story. What it sadly shows is server and profound deficiencies in being able to have normal healthy fulfilling long-term relationships and so they experience all the heartache and suffering that go with them.Yes most of their relationships start the same as Heterosexuals but because they are not natural fail to fulfil what their real needs are, but sadly by the time they come to realise this they are trapped in the make-believe lifestyle that they propagate and so they play the game.I was warned at the time by one of them a woman who was attracted to me, her words were… Anne I don’t know why I’m telling you this because I like you a lot and want you but don’t go there stay away from us… I play the game because I have no choice I’m addicted to it but it’s a nightmare that I can’t escape from, I keep thinking it will work out in the end but it just continues on and I can’t wake up and then she kissed me and said please stay away and drove me home, I never went back. Later in life one of my friend’s son who had been raped as a young boy of 8 became a Homosexual and the nightmare began for him and continues but now he plays the game.Why did she warn me, I had been with them long enough to see it was a sham but was thinking like many do it will be different for me but it wouldn’t have been. I now believe I was being protected by the Lord even though at that time I was deceived and believed in the god of Evolution but God knows those who are His and that we will come to heart repentance accepting Salvation even before we are born…My greatest regret in regard to this hurting woman was that I couldn’t share with her the Hope and freedom I have now but I can warn others who think that coming out of the closet will meet all their needs but because it is the wrong closet life will remain for them empty and unfulfilled.
Sorry cinderkeys you need to find your own links which no doubt will present without understanding their reasons why Homosexual suicides are 14% higher than Heterosexual but the real reason is… if Homosexuals believe in any god at all it is one of their own understanding which means they don’t believe in God their Creator or accept His Truth and guidelines and so they suffer but He Loves them as He does us all and offers them a way of escape…Matthew 11:28-29… this is the only real link that will make a difference. Christian Love Anne.
06:11pm | 06/09/11
There seems to be a point of mentioning the presence of obesity in our society (increasing) as a counterpoint to this discussion of anorexia. Automatically gainsaying the speaker(s) by saying, in effect, ‘well, what about this?’, changes nothing. It does NOT mitigate against the negative factor(s) of anorexia, and it does NOT change the fact that, as a group, overweight persons suffer far more discrimination than do extremely thin people, and much more likely to be criticized for their appearance. And as far as the argument, “I see a lot more overweight than anorexics”, (I am paraphrasing here, not quoting verbatim), that is hardly a valid statement. Most people, unless they are VERY well-traveled, see only a small subset of human society at any time – you can’t go on what you see only, since we all don’t really see all that many (different) people on a daily basis. I could just as well claim that people are getting slimmer, if I go by my seeing more slender people day by day.ReplyAnne says:
05:07pm | 06/09/11
Courtney says… some of these sites can be a haven for those with serious eating disorders…You seem to be a very caring person Courtney which is commendable but you sound a little more mature than most of the young people who visit the dangerous websites that David has brought to our attention, they are indeed a serious problem that needs to be addressed.
Yes I agree with you we all need people that we can share our deepest concerns with or even just our ups and downs and it is one reason why young people benefit greatly by having a trained Chaplin at School so they can do this. I only wish as a young person I had the same opportunity instead of making some very unwise decisions that caused a lot of heartache in my life and of which I still suffer from one because of being Bulimic for 10 years. Yes I thought I knew everything.. I remember saying very boldly with much assurance to my Boss at the time ….. “I’m very intelligent and know everything” of course I was later to realise that the look he gave me said it all… “baby you will learn” and I did indeed and I’m still learning but being very immature with no life wisdom what seemed at the time a good way to deal with my issues turned out to be life threatening and even sadly contributed to the death of my little ones.
I’m a Christian now and have a very strong faith in God who Loves me greatly as He does everyone but He also created us with a need to interact with people. I’m disabled and live alone except for my two dogs and as much as I love them… well have you ever tried to have a deep and meaningful with a dog. I have been posting a long time on many websites and have been very blessed although at times hurt. I have shared with a lot of people and I agree with you if they shut these websites down for whatever reason it would leave a big hole in my life but I have also been exposed to some pretty disturbing websites but of course I had the maturity to choose to click off.
We must protect our young people and this is where David’s focus is at and I commend him for it but I also appreciate how you feel Courtney and what you say has value but there is a great danger for our young people if these websites are allowed to offer their horrific advise to impressionable minds so they do indeed have to be banned, because regardless of why our young people are suffering from eating disorders they still use these websites and so are in great danger but yes perhaps the positive ones need to be promoted more and not just banned too.
Thank you for sharing your concerns Courtney – Kind regards – AnneReplyMyron Gains says: